Perfectly, we have found Ken’s masterful scientific study towards bloodlines from Llewelyn Fawr and you can Joanna

Only ‘Ellen’s’ label remains a puzzle, around is apparently no-you to definitely titled Ellen otherwise Helen, but maybe an ‘Eleanor’ to the Joanna’s side (Eleanor from Aquitaine, mother from Joanna’s father Queen John)

Hey, people. It is it’s interesting; the things i wouldn’t have given to get access to this post twenty-5 years back while i was contrasting and you will writing Here Be Dragons!

The key reason for so it workout is to use, because of the a review of genealogist’s views about the subject by asking specific understood brand-new source, to choose who was simply mom off Gwladus Ddu ferch Llywelyn. Try she Joanna, wife off Llywelyn ab Iorwerth (Joan Plantagenet: Produced circa.1188, died. March 1237) otherwise is actually she Tangwystl ferch Llyarch from Rhos, domme regarding Llywelyn, created circa. 1168, died??

I shall follow this with a holiday study into the you can lifestyle regarding an effective ded Susanna, considering over to Queen Henry 111 as the an excellent hostage inside the 1228 with her child custody being provided in order to Sir Nicholas Verdun and his awesome spouse Clementia.

The brand new feedback of one’s Genealogists that we possess examined are only you to definitely, viewpoints, and so they disagree greatly. Zero unique proof can be obtained anyway, but i have to declare that almost all hold to have Gwladus becoming the new child out of Joanna. This is particularly true of your genealogists of the descendants regarding the new De- Braose friends, nevertheless they ily is associated with both the Welsh and you may English royal homes!

The list following of Llywelyn’s several legitimate and you may illegitimate students appears are generally approved by the every genealogists that we have studied apart from variations over if or not # 9 extremely lived. The schedules away from birth down the page are also debated by particular:

  1. Gruffudd ap Llywelyn, created circa.1199, died 1244
  2. Gwladys Ddu ferch Llywelyn, produced circa.1206, died 1251
  3. Ellen (Helen, Elen) ferch Llywelyn, created circa 1206? passed away circa 1253,
  4. Margred (Margaret) ferch Llywelyn, born circa 1208? died circa 1263,
  5. Dafydd ap Llywelyn, Prince out-of Wales, created circa 1208 (1211?) (second thoughts about this time, get a hold of later), passed away twenty five February 1246,
  6. Gwenllian ferch Llywelyn, created circa 1209 died 1281.
  7. Angharad ferch Llywelyn, produced circa 1210, passed away 1257
  8. Tegwared ap Llywelyn – produced circa 1210, you’ll be able to dual in order to Angharad?
  9. ‘Helen’, otherwise ‘Susanna’, produced circa 1214? Passed away 1259?

Discover far argument along the label of your own mothers out of such children. There is certainly general agreement your only particular children out of Llywelyn’s e Prince out of Wales and you will Ellen (Helen) just who married (1) John the fresh Scot, son of your own earl off Chester and you will (2) Robert de- Quincy. In the event advice was divided over the moms and dads of Gwladus, Gwenllian, Margred and you will Susanna, a lot of the genealogists I’ve learnt lean towards the mother becoming Joanna.

This is certainly partly and their supposed schedules out-of beginning as better as their marriage ceremonies to several marcher lords whom, one to supposes, will have sought to line-up their homes to this of its neighbor, the fresh Prince of North Wales and his partner, the queen off England’s child. It is believed such lords of March won’t have obtained a great deal notice or political desire during the marrying away from their sons to the illegitimate daughters off a Welsh prince having a great Welsh lady.

As to what brands of them children, whether because of the Joanna, Tangwystl or others, these were most of the entitled immediately following members of Llywelyn’s friends:

Ken, we are entirely on your own loans

Llywelyn’s mom are titled ‘ed ‘Susanna’ away from Gwynedd. Their paternal granny is named ‘Gwladus’. The parents out-of their granny Susanna, was ‘Gruffudd’ ap Cynan and you can ‘Angharad’ of Flint and you can both its names were given in order to Llywelyn’s people. It Susanna including got a cousin entitled ‘Gwenllian’, an equivalent term given that Llywelyn’s great grandmother.